Wed. February 13
Training Men to be Better: Rewards and Punishments
Anyone who has taken an introductory psychology class has been exposed to the theory of behaviorism. In a nutshell, behaviorists believe that the reason human beings feel, think, and behave the way they do is a result of rewards and punishments. If a seven year old child gets ice cream when she gets an A on a test, she will keep wanting to try and get an A. If an adult in a romantic relationship gets scolded every time he leaves the toilet seat up, he will eventually stop doing it. It’s a very basic principle, but is also one that dominated the field of psychology for decades.
It is this very principle that came to mind when I was reading Kay Hymowitz’s article entitled, “Where Have All the Good Men Gone?” In this article, Hymowitz laments the fact that most men in their twenties are more like overgrown children then “real men”–more interested in drinking, porn, hanging out with their buddies, and playing video games than establishing meaningful relationships with women. I personally believe Hymowitz is right. This opinion comes not from personal experience but from the stories I hear over and over again from women in their twenties trying to find Mr. Right. However, what to do about this is where Hymowitz and I probably diverge.
Research shows that on average men are just as interested in developing long term relationships as women, but are more interested in short-term, one-night stand relationships. You could argue this is evolution, socialization, or both, but the good news is that men are in fact interested in long-term, committed relationships. But over time as women have become more sexually liberated and standards of waiting until marriage for sex having basically gone by the way side for both genders, an unfortunate consequence has resulted: women have been feeding the beast of men’s desire for short-term relationships. Being able to spend most of the day playing video games and getting drunk while also still reaping the reward of short-term relationships is hard for men to turn down.
This is not fair and women have been the unfortunate victims of this cultural phenomenon. But what is the solution? The best option is that men should learn to not focus on short-term relationships–we should raise them better, build better societal structures to promote long term relationships, and (if you have an evolutionary viewpoint) work on ways to counteract men’s innate desire to have as much sex as possible.
But should we also look to women to play a role in this process? In his book Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man, Steve Harvey talks about men like animals and the importance of rewards and punishments. Harvey actively acknowledges his suggestions might not work so well with feminists, but makes suggestions like waiting ninety days before having sex with men to ensure he is truly in it for the right reasons.
I believe there is some morsel of truth to Harvey’s claims. If we as a society want men to grow up and be real men–whatever that definition is–it’s critical that we go back to the simple rules of behaviorism. People will feel, think, and behave in ways that they are rewarded or punished for. If we truly want men to change, we can hope they will reward and punish themselves, but acknowledge that we (and especially the women dealing with them) must also play a part.
Editor’s note: This piece is part of a symposium in which a variety of writers and thinkers weigh in on the question: “Can men be men again?” See earlier takes by Emily Esfahani Smith, Mark Judge, Mark Tapson, R. J. Moeller, Ben Domenech, a second post by Emily Esfahani Smith, Abby Schachter, and Anthony Dent. All of the posts are compiled here.
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Your points are great, but it is important to know when to use THEN and when to use THAN. Then is used to relate to time sequence–first I will go to the store, then I will come home. Than is used in comparison–they are more interested in playing video games than developing deep relationships. Thanks!
Evalyn, Thanks for pointing out the grammatical error. It has been corrected.
So… when women were cowering inside their sexual shells they were the victims. Then women pushed for their own sexual liberation, and are getting exactly what they wanted, they are the victims again? When does being a victim turn into personal responsibility?
When you are a man…
good point. Women seem never to be held accountable for their behavior. As a man. I find this unacceptible. I refuse to held liable for womens poor decisions.
Women need to realize that a man’s LTR criteria looks something like 30% looks (for short term this is 80%), 30% femininity, 30% loyalty, 10% other (job, intelligence). Feminism has caused women to waste away their 20′s reducing their looks, zeros out their femininity, and causes their loyalty to take a serious hit. Given the way divorce works and the fact that women will put out for free it is logical that men are less likely to commit to marriage and are increasingly opting for cohabitation
+1 WillBest
I have never thought much about how to quantify the most important and desirable things about women. You have provided food for thought and I thank you.
If I did this, but in reverse, people would call me a sexist piece of shit.
I’m glad no one really cares about this article, because frankly it’s offensive, but stupid enough to be ignored completely by everyone.
You must be a hammer, because you hit the nail on the head.
Paul
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Reminds me of the episode of Big Bang Theory where Sheldon uses chocolate to train Penny.
” By this time next week, I believe I can have her jumping out of a pool, balancing a beach ball on her nose.”
hey one search of craigs list in any city in the US and the large number of posts from women .. hubby is away i need play.. or some such ..boyfriend at work .. or what ever women put up there ..and how many sites are there ..
good men will come back when women stop doing what they where angry about what some men where doing .. good men of the world are most likely scarred with trust issues .
women declared war.. men have retreated .. enjoy the taste of victory ..
kerry underwood can put out a song about a wife and the other women killing the cheating husband.. and it becomes a hit .. if a man kills his cheating wife he is a monster ..
So…it’s the Men who need training, is it? NOTHING for the ladies? Let me clue you into something…
Men in their 20′s are not interested in settling down because it is not in their best interest to do so. Period. Women have had a great amount to do with that, sorry to say, but political correctness prevents an honest examination of it. Bottom line, you want men to be interested in long-term relationships? Make those relationships worth their while. How do you do that? How about freaking asking them? But be ready to hear answers you might not like because they don’t square with current PC ideology.
Until you do, the boys will be otherwise entertaining themselves.
Exactly. Men are seeing how marriage is treating their co-workers, and growing to see how lopsided the divorce/alimony system is to realize that it’s a bum deal for them.
Once you get married, she owns everything you have, and everything you’ll ever make. It’s not too bad until you have kids. Then she can boot you out of the house for no reason, and you’re living in a $200/month room you found on Craigslist to subsidize her keeping the house, keeping you from your kids, and having some other guy sleep with her in the house you’re paying for.
Doing what you want, when you want, looks a whole lot more fulfilling in comparison. This is especially true when short-term flings are so easy to come by with women in their 20s, since they are so occupied sleeping around to prove how empowered they are.
I hate to say it, but this remark is dead-on. And I’m in a very happy 10-year relationship. The Courts and divorce entitlement mentality has wrecked marriage for most young men. You want ‘no-fault’ divorce laws, then you keep the assets you came in with, period. You don’t get to keep the house and throw the husband out on the street unless you own it.
You can prove adultery or violence? That’s a different story.
What state do you folks live in? Not that way in California.
“This is not fair and women have been the unfortunate victims of this cultural phenomenon. But what is the solution? The best option is that men should learn to not focus on short-term relationships–we should raise them better, build better societal structures to promote long term relationships, and (if you have an evolutionary viewpoint) work on ways to counteract men’s innate desire to have as much sex as possible.”
Hmmm, that or you could teach young women not to be so “sexually liberated”, too. Milk — Cow, um, do you really need an instruction manual to explain that TWO sexes are involved to this issue?
Oh, right. Since men are one of the sexes involved then, naturally, they’re the ones that are wrong. Always.
Instead of this, how about we just remove the insane penalties and risks for men to get married? I think you’d see a sharp uptick in men willing to marry women if it didn’t have a better than 50% chance of costing them half their accumulated wealth and three-quarters of their income forever. Better yet, get women to actually be willing to work with a partner in a marriage, as 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Best of all, you might convince women that men are humans to be compromised and dealt with, not dogs to be trained, you bizarre sexist.
OK, I’m not twenty anymore but I remember it well.
This article is correct except in seeing SEX as the only “treat”. There’s a lot more to life than that. I for example am desperate for my lover’s glowing smile. It’s the reward and I can receive it in response to many activities. Oh, sex is one, but there are so many more ways to cause her to light up. And when she’s happy, she’s responsive.
I’ve been married over 40 years (clapping?). Sex never becomes unimportant but one’s priorities change as life goes on. Meet her priorities and she’ll meet yours.
Don’t forget that, like sex, left is a participation sport in which teams have the advantage.
I suspect that Kay Hymowtiz seeks out the men who confirm her world-view.
I’m sorry, but this just won’t work.
If you make a man wait 90 days for sex, I’m pretty sure he will come to the conclusion that you are either asexual or don’t find him attractive.
Personally, I want to find a woman who loves sex. Seems to me like the longer someone makes me wait, the less interested in sex she is, and therefore the less desirable she is as a partner.
I love how the author states that this all happened because of behavioral changes women made, and then assigns all the blame and the need to change to men, and as a total drive-by insult comparing men to dogs in the bargain. Because while somehow women are presumed to be equal in everything (translation superior and more highly evolved beings) they are responsible for absolutely nothing… including their own actions and the direct consequences of them. Ask women to change their behavior?! Seriously now.
Awwww, poor victim women.. they can’t have their cake and eat it too! Blame it all on men as usual!
Too funny! Is this a comedy site?
I spent 10 years worrying about what my wife thought. Then I realized I needed to focus on what she did, and training here to do what I wanted (which is of course the obvious right thing), and it really works. Twenty-five years later I’m happy and, you know what, so is she.
I will not comply.
“work on ways to counteract men’s innate desire to have as much sex as possible.”
That is a direct call to repress young boys sexuality. Honestly anti-human and disgusting.
If women want men to be in long term relationships, they should offer them incentive to be in one. As feminists often say, we do not owe you anything. Women are not entitled to men.
The best option is that men should learn to not focus on short-term relationships–we should raise them better, build better societal structures to promote long term relationships, and (if you have an evolutionary viewpoint) work on ways to counteract men’s innate desire to have as much sex as possible.
The above quote says it all. Typical of Acculturated articles on gender, the article fails to focus on how women can make themselves appealing to men, instead focusing on how to punish and control him. When women finally get the compliant man they say they want, they become sexually turned off, so the article gives completely self-defeating advice.
Men are dropping out of relationships because women expect to be treated as queens even when they behave like harpies, and there is no real reward for committing since marriages can be broken at will and always on terms favorable to the woman. A short-term relationship is the best you can hope for in such circumstances.
“In this article, Hymowitz laments the fact that most men in their twenties are more like overgrown children then “real men”–more interested in drinking, porn, hanging out with their buddies, and playing video games then establishing meaningful relationships with women.” Men have always been more interested in these things. That’s how men are. In times past, a guy could marry and still hang out with buddies, drink or pursue a hobby or whatever. Do you really think men want to just “have a meaningful relationship” and yak with women all day? Grow up.
Face it, tradition represent what “works”. It’s time tested. It’s the democracy of the dead. What would your great grandmother say? Respect yourself and him and resist the impulse to regulate every hour of his day.
‘”But what is the solution? The best option is that men should learn to not focus on short-term relationships–we should raise them better, build better societal structures to promote long term relationships, and (if you have an evolutionary viewpoint) work on ways to counteract men’s innate desire to have as much sex as possible.”
It was called Patriarchy
Psychosis has a lower rate of occurrence in dogs than in humans (sorry, you need to know that for me to make my point). So, if you have a “bad”dog the likelihood is that it’s not the dog’s fault, it’s because you’re a lousy trainer.
I submit to you that if there once was an adequate supply of “good” men but now they are in short (or at least shorter) supply that there are now too many bad trainers and that you should look to re-instituting the training practices in use when the supply was adequate. For starters, societal acculturation can’t be a “gender neutral” process.
Woman: “How do you write women so well?” Melvin: “I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.”
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Maybe Mr. Duffy in his kennel is trainable with a rolled-up newspaper and a nearby bag of treats. But a growing number of men are looking at the pitiful quality of women available to them, plus the dire consequences of marriage once she gets “unhappy” , and finding other ways to approach their dating lives.
This “problem” will not be “solved” until we start asking why we are letting women get away with murder (literally, in some cases) in their treatment of men while we expect men to just grin and bear it.
Asking this may not earn Duffy pats on the head and grateful time with a milk bone, but it just might help save marriage in our society.
I see so many petty women around me fiercely erecting walls of unspoken expectations for their man to scale. Then they go out onto the parapets of their pride and deride a man for even attempting the climb.
Smart women never need to “train” a man with reward and punishment. Why not work together for a successful relationship?
Ann-n-n-nd now my original comment arrives. Sorry for the duplicate.
I see so many petty women around me fiercely erecting walls of unspoken expectations for their man to scale. Then they go out onto the parapets of their pride and deride a man for even attempting the climb. Don’t train. Build the relationship together. That’s assuming you see some value in having a lifetime of friendship, confidence, and simple human connectivity that can see you through to the end of life. Farsighted women build. Short-sighted women train.
Thanks to feminism, women now believe that they can treat men like crap and they have to put up with it. I haven’t met one man worth his salt that will. So yes, men will sleep with them, but that’s just about it. They’re in no rush. They have no ticking clocks. They’re just doing their own thing until the right one comes along. And that’s this girls humble opinion.
The article reveals the overt sexism and female supremacism that drives the modern womens movement and culture. They see men as beasts to be tamed in order to extract emotional and financial security for a lifetime,rather than fellow humans to be treated with respect for their individuality or desires.
So what if I likes video games? Watching the dreck on TV doesn’t make one superior or more adult. Or hanging out in some hipster club buying overpriced drinks for freeloading women.
Women need to quit infantilizing grown men in order to justify their sexist put downs of mens hobbies. Call me when you quit watching the ‘Housewifes of Whoreville” or “50 Shades of Spank- me-Daddy” or the Kardashian crap and then talk about “maturity”.
Women need to quit trying to run mens lives, especially men who they don’t even know.
Men want relationships with equals who respect their maleness and differences and not control freak harpies who confuse dominating behavior and assertions of gender superiority with a healthy relationship. When modern women get that and apply it, they’ll have all the real men they want.
See also:
“This Just In: No-strings-attached Sex Will Not Make Men Marry You, or Make Them Responsible”
“People Should Marry Earlier”
“Feminism Hurts Women”
“Feminist Nightmare”
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So, the reality is this: Men are behaving logically, given the horrifyingly anti-male nature of the divorce laws and the current behavior (and low marriage-quality) of women.
(If anyone wishes to know what constitutes high marriage-quality, here you go: A man not only wants a willing bedmate, but someone who’ll have good character, loyalty, dependability, intelligence, and unflappability in hard times. She’ll need to raise his children well and set a good example for them. She’ll need to be of a personality type who tends to be contented and happy. And she’ll need to not spend the household income needlessly. All that, and a willing bedmate.
There is an interesting corollary to all of that with respect to sexual behavior. A short-term fling need only be a willing bedmate, and the less investment required, the better. A woman who hops in the sack with him after a short period of time is therefore “on track” for short-term. But a woman who abstains from sex will require a second look: Is it because she has a healthy libido, but it is being overridden by “traditional family values?” If so, she is prime marriage material: The sort of woman you want as a mom for the kids, and who is unlikely to cheat. But if she abstains from sex because she’s afraid of sex or for some other dysfunctional reason, then of course he’ll drop her, because that’s the kind of unwilling bedmate who’ll stay an unwilling bedmate in the marriage, and no man wants or should put up with that.)
Now women today are typically spoiled, entitled, prone to irrationality in a crisis, prone to “retail therapy,” lacking in moral fiber, and undependable except as regards their narrowly-construed economic interests. Feminism has taught them contempt for the “family values” side of life and most of them aren’t wise enough to see through that and express contempt for feminism (or at least that form — sadly the most common form — of it).
So, men are behaving logically: These chicks aren’t fit to be wives and mothers. But they’re fit for bedding and discarding, because all that takes is hotness, and most girls in their 20′s can manage that.
Now if all the women were to change into potential lifemates, that would be a good thing and men would become more interested.
Ah, but there’s a catch. Let’s say a man knows three women and can date any of them. And let’s say one of them decides to hop on the “marriage track” and behave like a woman of character. Well, part of that will be not having sex with him until the relationship is quite serious — in traditional enclaves, that means waiting for marriage; in the less-traditional, engagement or something close to it; but depending on the shallowness of the company one keeps it may be as little as the “90 day” standard mentioned in the piece.
So one woman starts abstaining. But here’s the catch: The other two will not. Indeed, they’ll out-slut (I use the term without moral condemnation; it’s the most immediately comprehended term) one another. Why? Well, it’s the best way to kickstart the relationship with the man and displace the other competitors. It gets his attention.
And that’s the problem: The girls who put out are not really helping themselves in the “long-term relationship” category. They are psychologically (in the man’s psychology, I mean) placing themselves into the “use and discard; you don’t want this chick raising your children or benefiting from your life insurance” category.
But they win in the short-term. They gain a victory over the girl who, in trying to place herself on the “long-term” track, wound up in the cul-de-sac of friendspace.
In order to reverse this trend society-wide, you’d have to get ALL the women to agree to increase the price of sex, like a cartel.
But (a.) that’s like herding cats, and most of them will “cheat” against any higher standard unless society becomes quite condemnatory of premarital sex again, which is unlikely; and (b.) it will face another problem: The disinterest of many men. After all, between the girls who don’t follow the higher standard, and pornography, and non-romantic interests of various kinds, there are so many other things to occupy a man’s time!
That, friends, is the current state of the sexual marketplace.
Frankly, if you want a woman who isn’t damaged goods, your best bet is a foreign woman from a traditional country with strong family ties; or, failing that, a religious woman from a traditional family in the U.S. (not Episcopalian or any similar watered-down socially-acceptable sect, but something like a traditionalist Catholic or Orthodox Jew or a daughter of Evangelical missionaries).
Yes, a woman like that probably won’t be as good at looking hot as her more secular counterparts, and you have to watch out for the ones with damaged sexual notions. But you can sit ‘em in front of a few episodes of What Not To Wear and fix the frumpiness. The idea is that it’s like an investment: You’re looking to buy stock in something with good fundamentals, that’s currently undervalued.
1) “Research Shows” is not the same as truth.
2) None of this is new and we found ways of dealing with it millenia ago.
3) But they require self-restraint on both sides (and that is anathema to a culture that looks to celebrities for guidance).
4) As long as #3 holds – things will only get worse…
I love the sentiment here.
As a man who deeply appreciates his wife, I’ve actually been frustrated lately by “feminists” who defend women’s right to portray themselves sexually and engage in casual sex.
They seem to think that giving a man the reward for hard relational work he hasn’t done is “empowering”.
Even more obviously backwards, they seem to think that it is somehow empowering when female celebrities flaunt their sexuality. It’s hard to imagine how the wives and girlfriends of the men watching this soft-porn are being empowered by this.
Expressing frustration about people defending the individual liberties of another says more about the observer than the observation. Since you seem to view sex as a reward, it’s odd that you seem to find fault with women who feel empowered by that sort of behavior.
Now, addressing the consequences of sexual liberation might be a more worthwhile discussion, but “sex as a reward” is one of the things that has gotten us to this point in the first place.
I’ll agree to that. Sex is not a reward.
Perhaps I should have said “what many of these men see as a reward”?
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I agree with the previous commentators that this article is nonsense. However, he does get one thing correct (although not in the sense he meant it):
” People will feel, think, and behave in ways that they are rewarded or punished for.”
And that’s exactly why men act the way they do. Let’s look at the punishments first. Men are punished for being standup guys who marry and support a family by the brutal treatment they receive at the hands of the family courts, where they are nothing more than economic resources to be exploited in full. Many others are punished by domineering and dominating behaviors at the hands of their wives. What young man wants to sign up for that?
So let’s look at the rewards instead. The rewards of drinking with one’s buddies and playing video games is obvious – it’s fun. Men learn that women reward aggressive masculine behavior with easy uncommitted sex. That’s fun too. What’s not to like?
“This is not fair and women have been the unfortunate victims of this cultural phenomenon. But what is the solution?”
So yes, men respond to rewards and punishments, but women made these rewards and punishments the way they are. Women perpetrate most of the divorce, women lobbied for the preferential treatment they receive in family court, women are more likely to dominate and domineer their spouses, and women are the ones who sexually reward the cads over the would-be dads.
Women are not the unfortunate victims, they are the offenders. They’ve made society the way it is, and if they are suffering the consequences, it’s no more than they deserve.
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Making slaves out of men. Clap Clap Clap*
“Training men to be better…”
I’ll translate that:
Training men to run back to the prison so women can extort them with government’s gun and bend them over in family court.
I’ve been married for a couple of decades and I will go to my grave warning men about what a horrible contract the marriage contract is.
Nice try ladies. Married men are getting the word out, enjoy your cats…
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